The International Science Council and its Member, the China Association for Science and Technology (CAST), in partnership with Nature, have launched a new six-part podcast series exploring the evolving landscape of research careers. Across the series, early- and mid-career researchers will be in conversation with senior scientists, sharing experiences of growth, collaboration, and resilience in the face of rapid change.
What does it take to turn science into action on the global stage? In this second episode, science journalist Izzie Clarke speaks with two leading voices in science diplomacy: Professor Zakri Hamid, former Science Advisor to the Prime Minister of Malaysia, and María Estelí Jarquín, ISC Governing Board member and international relations manager at the UK Centre for Ecology and Hydrology.
Together, they reflect on their career paths and share insights on how researchers can build meaningful careers in science policy, diplomacy, and advisory roles. From advising prime ministers to navigating international negotiations, they offer candid reflections and practical advice on the skills, mindset, and opportunities that matter most.
Izzie Clarke: 00:01
Hello and welcome to this podcast series on the changing scientific landscape for early and mid-career researchers, which is presented in partnership with the International Science Council, with the support of the China Association for Science and Technology.
I’m science journalist Izzie Clarke, and this episode focuses on the importance of careers within science policy, diplomacy and advice, and the key skills required by early- to mid-career researchers interested in working in these fields.
Today, I’m joined by Professor Zakri Hamid, Director of the International Institute of Science Diplomacy and Sustainability at UCSI University in Kuala Lumpur, former Science Advisor to the Prime Minister of Malaysia and Fellow of the International Science Council.
Zakri Hamid 00:49:
Hi Izzie.
Izzie Clarke 00:51:
And María Estelí Jarquín, currently part of the governing board of the International Science Council, and also an international relations manager at the UK Centre for Ecology and Hydrology in Oxfordshire.
María Estelí Jarquín 01:03:
Hello, Izzie. Hello, Professor Zakri. Thank you for this invitation.
Izzie Clarke 01:07:
Thank you both very much. Now, I’m very excited to be speaking with you. I mean, hugely important roles that you’ve both got. So, María, can we start with you? Why are science policy, diplomacy and advisory roles so important in today’s world?
María Estelí Jarquín 01:23:
That’s a very interesting question, Izzie. So, we’re living in a time in history where we need bridge builders more than ever. So, people, ideas, that can connect across divides, foster dialogue, reconcile opposing parties and groups to come together and find long-term solutions. And throughout my career, I have been really marvelled by what science can do – ease tensions, help navigate difficult circumstances.
And this is the exact role of science policy, science diplomacy and advisory roles. They are really crucial because they see that this intersection of knowledge and action and science has this ability to transcend borders, to unite countries to work together that perhaps in other contexts they wouldn’t. Science advisers, science diplomats, they aren’t just solving today’s problems. They’re laying the foundations of those bridges where future generations in a hundred, in two hundred years from now will walk on.
Izzie Clarke 02:26:
Zakri, you’ve advised at some of the highest levels in Malaysia. So, what does being a science adviser actually involve and what impact can it have?
Zakri Hamid 02:36:
Let me relate to you one instruction from the Prime Minister. When I first met him, he said, “I know you are a scientist and I’m a politician. I’m not really particular with the kind of science advice that you would give me, but I need you to give me two things.”
He said, one, “Can the science advice translate into a better income for our people?” Meaning, can we use science to alleviate poverty? And the second one, he said, “Can that science advice translate into jobs?” These are very simple instruction but is very challenging. So, this is the importance, the relevance, of science today. And how I do it, of course, there were many levels from working with the respective ministries involved in science or interacting with our colleagues overseas.
Izzie Clarke 03:45:
Absolutely, and I think that’s… the beauty of science is that it’s so powerful for problem solving. But we also need those people living those experiences to impart that in their research, as well.
María, you’ve built your career on connecting science with policy. So, what drew you to this path and what challenges did you face early on?
María Estelí Jarquín 04:10:
After my uni years, I was hired to join different consultancy teams to advise Latin American government in different topics. I was always asking myself why those consultancy teams existed as opposed to consult the great research that was happening. So, I started to look at Master’s programmes where I could learn more about that intersection between science and policy, and it was the beginning of everything in this career for me.
Challenges. Well, coming from Latin America, I come from a middle-income country. I could see very early on that I would not necessarily have a voice in a table. First challenge, perhaps our science adviser structures aren’t as formal as other countries, so how to create that cultural awareness of the importance of those structures. But also how to have a voice in a world where probably my region was underrepresented in the great discussions around science diplomacy.
Izzie Clarke 05:10:
How did you navigate that and how have you navigated other practical barriers, whether that’s gender, discipline or geography, that might help others in a similar position?
María Estelí Jarquín 05:23:
I think I have been impacted by all of those practical barriers that you mentioned – gender, discipline, geography and, very importantly, age. So, my advice there on how to navigate would be, first of all, prepare yourself, study. Really arrive to a meeting or to a conference or to a multilateral meeting well prepared on the topic, well prepared on who is going to attend as well.
Second, have mentors to help you navigate those scenarios. Mentors that probably are ahead of you in your career that can share their lessons about life.
Third and final – be humble. When I started working in collaboration or building bridges between the scientific institutions and the ministries of foreign affairs in Latin America – two very separate worlds – I remember I arrived to the foreign office in Costa Rica and I said to them, “Hello, I come here for you to teach me everything that you think I need to learn from you.” I developed trust in them. And how do you do that? By being humble, by being open to learn new things together with your colleagues and with your partners in a multilateral negotiation or a bilateral discussion, as well.
Izzie Clarke 06:41:
I think that’s an interesting point because I think sometimes people can go into scenarios and almost feel intimidated, scared to admit that they might not know something that they want to learn about it. I guess it’s a level of vulnerability as well to say teach me, help me.
Zakri, can we look at your career for a moment? What have been some of those key moments or choices that helped shape your interdisciplinary, policy-focused career?
Zakri Hamid 07:10:
Another interesting question. When I obtained my PhD, my intent was to go back and teach at the university. The change was when I was invited to be a science or technical adviser to the Malaysian government delegation negotiating the UN Convention on Biological Diversity, and this was in 1990. At the end of the first day of the negotiation, I plucked enough courage to talk to the head of delegation who was an ambassador.
So, I told her, Madam Ambassador, I think I want to go home. And she said, why? I said, I’m not really familiar or comfortable with the running of the meeting. This delegation from the UN member states, from 200 countries, would meet in plenary for half an hour and then they would adjourn. They would adjourn to the delegates’ lounge for two and a half hours, drinking coffee or whatever.
So, I told her, I don’t think I can fit in. Then the Ambassador told me, Professor, why don’t you give yourself a few more days? She was amused but also quite upset. That was nearly 40 years ago. I never looked back. You know why? Because it was in the delegates’ lounge where things were a agreed upon.
Izzie Clarke 08:44:
And I think that leads us on really well to the points of talking about skills. To have that negotiating power and to face those conversations, what would you say are the valuable skills for working in science policy and how can researchers begin to develop them?
Zakri Hamid 09:05:
First, you must be a good listener. Secondly, you must also appreciate the position of your adversary. Third, you must be tolerant in the sense some people talk more than they should. Fourth, you must have the knowledge.
So, as a scientist, of course you have the knowledge. But you should also be very careful that the science advice that we give must be relevant to the issue. Finally, I think, whatever policy that we give should not be policy prescriptive. It should be policy relevant.
María Estelí Jarquín 09:51:
And I completely subscribe to everything that Zakri said. And I would add just two soft skills. The first one – the skill of storytelling. And this will help scientists and early-career researchers to actually share their science better. Second essential skill – networking. And this is learning how to identify the right events, the right people to talk to to help grow your career and then build common ground, build trust with those people in order to, A, learn from them or, two, advise them.
Izzie Clarke 10:25:
So, to you both, where do you see the greatest opportunity for early- to mid-career researchers to contribute meaningfully to global or to national policy conversations?
Zakri Hamid 10:39:
First starting point is to do it at your local or national levels to be involved with the ministries. You mentioned about the foreign ministry – that’s one of course. But in science, there are many more. Ministry of science, technology and innovation, ministry of trade. You need to be engaged.
To do that is possibly to offer your services to those committees that are being set up. The other one is to bring along your scientific friends. We will notice sometime, not all the time, the scientists are very comfortable in their ivory tower. If you are an academic, you publish papers, you want to get promoted to a professor or whatever. Those are fine.
But there is another element that should also involve the academic. And that is to examine whether your research results are relevant to the nation, are relevant to the region. So, if that relevance is not there, I will tell you that you have a lot of room to grow.
Izzie Clarke 11:50:
And María?
María Estelí Jarquín 11:51:
I would like to address a message to all those early- to mid-career researchers from lower- and middle-income countries that might be listening to us. Be brave about coming to this national policy or global conversations because I am certain that you’re going to diversify the discussion, because you’re going to bring new perspectives. Perhaps you’re going to bring new methodologies.
How valuable it is to have on the table someone that can say how things work in Southeast Asia, in Africa or in Latin America. To talk about equitable partnerships when you work in science, especially to bring a voice for all of those that have been underrepresented in science, but also in policy discussions at the multilateral level.
Izzie Clarke 12:38:
Thank you both for joining me today.
If you’re an early- or mid-career researcher and you want to be part of a global community, then join the International Science Council forum for emerging scientists.
Visit the website council.science/forum. I’m Izzie Clarke, and next time we’ll be exploring the impact of AI and digitalization on scientific careers. Until then.
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