The International Science Council and its Member, the China Association for Science and Technology (CAST), in partnership with Nature, have launched a new six-part podcast series “Scientific careers in a changing world” exploring the evolving landscape of research careers. Across the series, early- and mid-career researchers will be in conversation with senior scientists, sharing experiences of growth, collaboration, and resilience in the face of rapid change.
In the fourth episode, science journalist Izzie Clarke speaks with Professor Rashid Sumaila, Canada Research Chair in Interdisciplinary Ocean and Fisheries Economics at the University of British Columbia, and Dr Mia Strand, Postdoctoral Research Fellow at Nelson Mandela University. Together, they explore how transdisciplinary research is shaping the future of ocean science and why collaboration across disciplines, sectors, and communities is essential to address pressing global challenges.
The discussion highlights the leadership role of early- and mid-career researchers in pushing boundaries, fostering equitable approaches, and integrating diverse forms of knowledge.
Izzie Clarke: 00:01
Hello and welcome. I’m science journalist Izzie Clarke and in this podcast, presented in partnership with the International Science Council, with the support of the China Association for Science and Technology, we’ll be discussing the power of interdisciplinary research to protect our ocean, and how early- and mid-career researchers can bring about crucial change.
Today, I’m joined by Rashid Sumaila, Canada Research Chair in Interdisciplinary Ocean and Fisheries Economics, and Professor at the University of British Columbia in Canada.
Rashid Sumaila: 00:36
Hello. Thank you for having me.
Izzie Clarke: 00:38
And Dr Mia Strand, an Ocean Nexus Postdoctoral Research Fellow at the Institute for Coastal Marine Research at Nelson Mandela University in South Africa.
Mia Strand: 00:48
Hi, Izzie. Thank you so much for having me.
Izzie Clarke: 00:51
Thank you both for joining me. I think we’re living in a time where we are starting to understand that by protecting our ocean, that means we are protecting our planet. We are an ocean world. So, why is a transdisciplinary approach essential for tackling ocean challenges today?
Rashid Sumaila: 01:09
Yeah, actually, we have one global ocean. We’re all interconnected. So, to me, that is one place where interdisciplinarity is important, truly. Not only scientists, but working with government, with NGOs, with communities, Indigenous people, to try to find a solution that works.
I’m an economist by training but I decided to be interdisciplinary because I never believed that economics alone can solve our big problems — you need to work together. No single group or discipline can deal with the ocean issues. We need to understand everything, from the ecology right to the chemistry, the physics, to the people, the communities, so this is a laboratory for interdisciplinarity.
Izzie Clarke: 01:51
And Mia?
Mia Strand: 01:55
More locally, I think it’s also really essential to respond to real challenges and realities of, particularly, coastal communities that are facing a lot of the great impacts of climate change and of ocean degradation and ocean acidification, for example, and making sure that our research and our work is really connected to the realities on the ground. And also, that it’s connected to policy and policy needs.
Izzie Clarke: 02:23
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s so clear that this needs so many people involved in it to help. So, when it comes to early- and mid-career researchers, where are they helping and how, and what skills are needed at the heart of that?
Mia Strand: 02:38
I definitely think that early- and mid-career researchers are already quite an amazing driving force in that. I think we’re seeing a next generation or a current generation of researchers who really want to pursue more, what we often call, bottom-up approaches, or more relational and ethical research that is involving, like Rashid was saying, NGOs, Indigenous peoples, government officials, in the work that they do. We’re seeing a lot of early- and mid-career researchers wanting to challenge status quo, and I think that is needed to pursue more ethical and equitable research and approaches.
Rashid Sumaila: 03:19
The point you make, Mia, about just pushing the envelope and shaking up the system, that is one thing I love about young people coming into this business. Diverse people, right? And we need all this perspective if we’re going to move forward.
Just to give you a quick example, our project, OceanCanada Partnership, it’s called a partnership, and the Social Sciences and Research… Humanities Research Council of Canada, called SSHRC, actually has a partnership grant. And they insist that not only different professors, but also the students and the community, government, come together. And 50% of the budget was to develop early careers.
Izzie Clarke: 04:03
It’s great to see that that’s already starting, that things like that exist. Would you say there are any standout skills that you think are key to working in this field for anyone that might be listening?
Rashid Sumaila: 04:13
Oh yeah. In terms of skills, we are moving into some really technology kind of skills, we’re talking about AI and programming and so on. Things are moving so fast, and the younger people clearly are with the trend and they bring this into groups and we see that it has a lot of value. So, that’s one aspect I would like to highlight here.
Izzie Clarke: 04:37
Mia, is there anything you’d like to add?
Mia Strand: 04:39
Yeah. Facilitation skills are key. And we’re seeing that stakeholder engagement across different viewpoints and different ways of relating to or knowing the ocean is quite key and can contribute a lot to meaningful engagements.
I feel like I personally really benefitted from has been training in ethics, in what’s often called everyday ethics. So, beyond the very institutional ethics procedures, which I’m actually busy with at the moment, it’s more about how can we apply different approaches to everyday ethics and building relationships, and addressing power asymmetries and power relations that are already embedded in the relationships that we form or that are already there, and taking time to build trust and form relationships. That’s also a key thing.
Izzie Clarke: 05:31
Yeah. Given that this is such a big subject to tackle, you are going to need to work with people alongside the power of transdisciplinary research in that approach. So, can you tell me about a project that you’ve been involved in that brings different disciplines together within ocean research, and what was that issue trying to tackle?
Rashid Sumaila: 05:53
Yeah. We have a live project now, another Canada Partnership grant, we have case studies in five continents. We have the Canadian case study, which is about Indigenous management of the ocean and fisheries, which they have centuries of experience in. Then we go to the Netherlands, talking about circular economy. Then we are in West Africa, looking at IUU fishing, gender issues and sustainability, food security.
Then we go to China, and there we’re looking at agriculture because they are the masters of agriculture. So, what can we learn from China, and what don’t we want to touch with a long pole from their experience? Finally, in Costa Rica, is the land–ocean relationship.
And in all of these case studies, our goal is how to deal with the sustainability challenges at the nexus of food security. How do you feed billions of people in the face of climate change without destroying biodiversity?
Izzie Clarke: 06:59
There are so many topics and countries and different corners of the world all involved in that. How do you even begin to plan something like that, because it has so many moving parts?
Rashid Sumaila: 07:12
Indeed, and that is a challenge, that is really the fun part! I think one of the things we’ve had experience really working with large groups. But still it’s not easy, it’s very challenging. There are different languages, disciplinary ones, continental ones, and so on. But you know the value of this, so far, is remarkable.
Izzie Clarke: 07:34
And Mia, can you tell me about a project that you’re involved in as well and, again, talk about how that brings all those different disciplines together?
Mia Strand: 07:43
Yes. One of the projects I’m currently involved in is a WIOMSA working group called Blue Tenure Transitions. And that’s actually bringing together marine and social scientists of different disciplines, but also people in government, decision-makers, and also community-based knowledge holders.
And it’s really to try and understand and research how the rights of small-scale and artisanal fishers and Indigenous and local coastal communities can better be recognized but also realized of their rights in the Western Indian Ocean, particularly, in the context of increasing blue economy investments and efforts, but also increasing ocean conservation processes such as the goal for 30×30 in marine spatial planning that’s happening.
Izzie Clarke: 08:33
And you advocate for equitable collaboration with ocean communities, as well, and in previous episodes of this series, we’ve talked about how important it is to involve the Global South, as well, in discussion. So, what does that look like in practice working with ocean communities, and why is that such an important piece of the puzzle for now and for the future?
Mia Strand: 08:56
I do still think that we really need to centre the experiences and the realities of coastal communities, particularly, in the Global South and on the African continent, that are facing a lot of these challenges today. And I do think that the only way that scientists or researchers, or even decision-makers, can ensure that they are hearing and listening deeply is to really work through equitable approaches.
So, what does that look like? The transformative opportunity of transdisciplinary research is that even from the start, the design of the project and the way we do our research can be co-produced with community members. And I think for early- and mid-career researchers, I think it’s also about understanding who and what you’re doing your research for, what you want to do and why. We’re seeing a lot of early- and mid-career researchers already doing that, that’s very great to see.
Izzie Clarke: 09:58
Yeah. And Rashid, what do you think are the biggest barriers to making transdisciplinary and community-based research more common, and are there ways in which we can begin to overcome them?
Rashid Sumaila: 10:11
Yeah. The barriers, it’s language, also. The other one is — Mia, I like that you stress the power imbalance and the inequities, because that is so important. By really ignoring the communities, we are losing something overall.
I think our world and our economy is run a lot by so-called Western principles, and we can debate that. I tell people looking for profit is not just a Western thing. My own grandfather knew that he couldn’t continue running losses in his little business. But it seems profit, short-term profit, is running the world, and I really think if we open up the space for Indigenous knowledge — what I call granny wisdom — to soften this hardcore ‘money, money, money’ thing, that will really make the world better, we’ll know how to deal with the environment.
Izzie Clarke: 11:10
What advice, and this is to both of you, would you give to early- and mid-career researchers who want to embark on a career in transdisciplinary research?
Mia Strand: 11:20
I think just do it. I think have fun and learn, and the benefits outweigh the costs, I would say, even though it might give you some grey hairs and it might get sleepless nights, I do think that it will make your research and your work more relevant, more applicable, and you will learn a lot.
And be ready to be humble and unlearn things. Like Rashid was saying, what is so core is to question some of the forces that might be louder than others in the world right now.
Rashid Sumaila: 12:00
This is fantastic advice. It’s not going to be easy. And, actually, people might even call you names for pushing the envelope. Just ignore them. Eyes on the ball, persevere, persistence, keep pushing. You’re going to be happy you did that because the world is recognizing this more and more. So, come on board, guys and girls! Let’s do it and push the world in the way we want it to be to improve here.
Izzie Clarke: 12:28
A lovely note to end on. Thank you both so much for joining me.
If you’re an early- or mid-career researcher and you want to be part of that transdisciplinary community, join the International Science Council forum for emerging scientists.
Visit the website council.science/forum to find out more. I’m Izzie Clarke and next time, we’ll be discussing the importance of well-being and mental-health support for early and mid-career researchers. Until then.
Disclaimer
The information, opinions and recommendations presented in our guest blogs are those of the individual contributors, and do not necessarily reflect the values and beliefs of the International Science Council
Read more about Rethinking growth and resilience in the research ecosystem 
Read more about Emerging trends shaping scientific careers 
Read more about Navigating science careers: Strategic pathways for the future 